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Post a Comment On: Ken Shirriff's blog

"Xerox Alto zero-day: cracking disk password protection on a 45 year old system"

19 Comments -

1 – 19 of 19
Blogger Carl Claunch said...

When can we expect the security updates for the Alto?

January 4, 2018 at 1:55 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Have you upgraded your Alto to Windows 10?

January 4, 2018 at 4:01 PM

Blogger Unknown said...

Very cool. I designed chips at PARC as a summer intern. You have a couple of disks from Doug Fairbairn, who was also in Lynn Conway's group.

January 4, 2018 at 4:51 PM

Blogger Flarn2006 said...

@Anonymous: And if not, then why not? WHY NOT??? HUH????? *presses gun to head*

January 4, 2018 at 5:46 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

You have put Xero people at risk with you irresponsible disclosure! /s.

January 4, 2018 at 7:33 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I see surnames of a couple of former PARC coworkers on some of the diskpacks you pictured, and I believe they're both still around. I'd be interested in reading their, and others', stories about the projects they did using the Alto.

Also, any plans to resurrect any of the (D-)machines that came after the Alto, like the Dolphin, Dorado, Dandelion, Dicentra?

January 4, 2018 at 8:16 PM

Blogger Carl Claunch said...

Two recent events included many reminiscences -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m_GhapEBLQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtGixgR95a4

January 4, 2018 at 9:44 PM

Blogger Unknown said...

I'm flabbergasted. That's my Alto disk you broke into!

The APL stuff is surely related to some work I did with Leo Guibas, showing why lazy evaluation would be a really good idea for implementing APL: see Compilation and delayed evaluation in APL, published January 1978. (That paper gives me an enviable Erdős number of 3, since Leo is a 2.) I'm sure it's not a complete APL implementation, just a proof of concept. It happens that my very first part-time job at PARC, in 1973, involved writing decision analysis software in APL -- on a timesharing system!

Given the AATFDAFD hint, I'd guess the real password is ADDATADFAD. This derives from a project I did with Jef Raskin at UCSD in 1974. (He mentioned it in this interview.) The Data General Nova we were working with produced some garbled message with ADDATADFAD where it should have said ADDITIONAL, and it was a running joke ever after. Strange, the things that occupy some brain cells for over 40 years.

Thanks for an amusing blast from the past.

-- Doug Wyatt (Xerox PARC 1973-1994)

January 4, 2018 at 10:38 PM

Blogger Michael said...

Hi, I believe the Hash algorithm allows many password value for the same hash...

January 4, 2018 at 11:18 PM

Anonymous zoomx said...

if I remember correctly Commodore 64 disks use the same schema of block pointers.
The file system stores a directory as the name of each file along with the disk address of the file's first block. Then in every block there is a pointer to the next block. I don't remember if there is a pointer to the previous block.

January 4, 2018 at 11:38 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't remember if there is a pointer to the previous block.

Not on the Commodore 64 there wasn't; the first two bytes mapped the track and sector if memory serves, but the reverse direction wasn't provided for. Those floppies int hr 1541 drive were a massive 170K.

January 5, 2018 at 7:07 AM

Blogger Unknown said...

Thank you for sharing, Doug!

Now I wonder how&why AATFDAFD solves for ADDATADFAD.

January 5, 2018 at 6:14 PM

Blogger Ken Shirriff said...

Doug: thanks for your comments! If you're in the Bay Area, you should stop by and see the Alto in action.

zoomx: Storing pointers to the next block is a pretty common file system technique. Having the back pointer makes it easier to piece files together to recover from disk corruption. Unix has fsck to fix a disk and the Alto used scavenger.

Daniel: I didn't want to leak anyone's real passwords (even 40 year old passwords), so I slightly perturbed the passwords given in the article. In addition, the characters in the password get shifted at two different rates, so the found password isn't exactly a suffix if the length is wrong. If I solve for a 10-digit password, I get AAAATADFAD which (after dropping the AAAA prefix) matches Doug's remembered password ADDATADFAD.

January 5, 2018 at 7:26 PM

Blogger Martin Haeberli said...

-would be cool if you find the source code for Butte (the next-generation BCPL-like language developed by Charles Simonyi and his team) - it generated Mesa-LIKE (but NOT Mesa) byte codes - I did the only Butte interpreter I know of, for the Xerox Alto, by hacking on the Alto Mesa microcode and fixing it for the Butte instruction set.
-I wonder whether the ‘AKAY’ component in your sample above refers to Alan Kay ...

January 5, 2018 at 8:09 PM

Anonymous Geoff Thompson said...

RE: The comment on it not being known if passwords included special characters...
My recollection is that passwords were not case sensitive and did not include special characters but did include digits.
If you have any of my disks let me know. I still remember my passwords and I am local. I'll save you the trouble.
I would be interested if you are finding evidence of the first e-mail "flame war" (ca. 1979) known as the "Coat Hanger Wars".
I am the guy who started it with an innocent request that blew up.
Geoff Thompson

January 7, 2018 at 8:00 AM

Blogger Carl Claunch said...

Geoff Thompson - we don't see your name on the labels of the cartridges but most of them do not have an owner name, just a brief description of the contents or purpose.

January 7, 2018 at 8:51 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

One of Doug Wyatt's disk packs is labeled "JaMGraphics," and there's some history there, too. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PostScript:

"In 1978 [John] Warnock left Evans & Sutherland and joined Xerox PARC to work with Martin Newell. They rewrote Design System to create the interpretive language, J & M or JaM[1] (for "John and Martin") which was used for VLSI design and the investigation of type and graphics printing. This work later evolved and expanded into the Interpress language.

Warnock left with Chuck Geschke and founded Adobe Systems in December 1982."

January 8, 2018 at 2:41 PM

Blogger Unknown said...

Yes, I worked with John Warnock to develop the Cedar Graphics library, whose API presented the device-independent imaging model prototyped in JaM and described in this 1982 paper. JaM is arguably a direct ancestor of PostScript. I was part of the Imaging Sciences Laboratory that Warnock and Geschke led until they departed to form Adobe. In some alternate universe I was one of the first Adobe employees, but in this one I stayed at PARC and continued some of the work on Interpress.

January 8, 2018 at 3:05 PM

Blogger Kevin said...

Lots of fun to read about the Xerox Alto again. Carl Claunch has made a number of FPGA based interface systems that are extremely interesting. Will he be publishing details about them? I did a search on the internet but didn't find anything.

Thanks to all of you for publishing these great articles. I know many of us live vicariously through your exploits

September 7, 2020 at 8:45 AM

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