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"Reverse-engineering the LM185 voltage reference chip and its bandgap reference"

7 Comments -

1 – 7 of 7
Anonymous Adam said...

Brilliant write up and very informative, while reading I could hear you're voice being a voice over. Also do the internal caps suffer the same sort of fate outside life size caps. ?

April 10, 2022 at 8:44 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Very nice article! I enjoyed the thorough explanation of each of the IC sections as well as of it's variants.A lot of knowledge is required for such an in-depth analysis! Thank you.

April 10, 2022 at 1:40 PM

Blogger Michele said...

Great post. I love the interactive chip explorer. That feature is very cool!

April 10, 2022 at 2:11 PM

Blogger Alex's Blog said...

Very nice the one thing about fuse though is that you need a pad opening so the glass and metal blows clean opening the fuse.

April 13, 2022 at 10:04 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi...nice explanation but your graph of band gap is off. The bandgap for silicon is 1.2 electron volts (eV), not volts. It's the voltage required to move an electron in the silicon atom from the valence band to the conduction band. That has nothing to do with the base voltage and temperature. Vbe is based on the junction properties of a P-type and N-type silicon junction, and is pretty uniform at about 0.7 volts. Temperature compensation can be done using a thermistor or a really good heat sink. I realize different methods need to be used in a silicon chip.

Also, in this day and age we should have thrown out the current flow from positive to negative. Current in any device, copper conductor or silicon device is due to electron flow (actually negative charges moving electron to electron). The concept of holes was introduced by Shockley to aid in visualization. Current flow from positive to negative is entirely convectional since at one time it was thought positive charges carried current. In an atom, the positive charges are protons bounds to the nucleus in a lattice.

I realize positive to negative current flow is still taught in university engineering courses but it is an anachronism that needs to be abandoned. Consider a vacuum tube, an evacuated glass cylinder. Electrons are boiled off a tungsten filament to form an electron cloud around the filament, or cathode. When a positive voltage of several hundred volts is applied to a metal cylinder (the plate) around the cathode, electrons are drawn to positive charge. It does not happen the other ways around, where mysterious positive charges move from the positive plate to the negative cathode.

Same in a semiconductor. An N-type is doped, as you say, to create an excess of electrons, and the P-type has a dearth of electrons. This creates a situation where electrons are missing from the valence band. If an electron leaves a valence band and moves to another valence band, it leaves a hole. But, come on, a hole is a hole, right? If I dig a hole in the ground, dig another, then fill the original hole, the hole moves. It's still a hole.

The idea that holes flow is ridiculous. To apply negative to positive flow to any transistor or diode, simply visualize electrons flowing into the arrows.

April 22, 2022 at 1:59 AM

Blogger Ken Shirriff said...

Hi Anonymous,
I think a look at the mathematics would clear up your misconceptions. Yes, Vbe is about 0.7 volts, but the "about" hides the temperature dependence. Also, the transistor junction equation divides by q, the charge of an electron, which is where the change from electron volts to volts happens. Rather than try to put formulas into a comment, I'll refer you to any reference on bandgap regulators, for instance How to make a bandgap voltage reference in one easy lesson.

April 22, 2022 at 10:07 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi Ken...thanks for reply. I studied this formally in an electrical engineering program far too long ago. I still have my textbook from that era so I'll try to re-familiarize myself with the theory. Unfortuntely I don't have the textbook for the one semester course I took in semiconductor theory. This text is for another EE course that covers semiconductors and their applications.

I do recall the 0.7 volt bias having to do with an N-type and a P-type silicon slab being joined together. The N-type repels electrons in the other slab and the P-type does the same for holes in the N-type, although I am not happy with the notion of holes as real phenomena.

With electrons and holes pushed away from the junction it creates a potential hill and it produces the 0.7 bias in silicon that must be overcome in a base emitter junction before current will overcome the hill.

With regard to what you are talking about, it is related to the energy required to break an electron free from a covalent bond, which is about 1.1 eV for silicon, as you have noted. That, of course, is related to temperature since the 1.1 eV applies at room temperature. The absence of the electron in the covalent bond is called a hole. The notion that these holes, which move in the opposite direction to vacating electrons, as a current, is something I cannot accept. As Shockley explained it, he never meant to convey that meaning when he coined the word hole.

The energy gap between a valence band and the conduction band is called the forbidden zone. It has been determined that the energy of the gap, Eg, as a function of temperature, is Eg(T) = 1.21 - (3.6 x 10^-4)T

At room temperature (300K), Eg for silicon = 1.1eV

Note here that we have not begun to discuss the bias of an N-P junction, we are still talking about a slab of silicon and the relationship of electrons in the valence and conduction bands to temperature.

You are far better informed about IC construction that I am so I cannot comment on temperature compensation techniques. I'll need to read your explanation again, maybe I misunderstood. However, with discrete components, I have never encountered a temperature compensation circuit as you have described. How would the temperature be detected and a set point applied?

It's getting late and I need time to review that.

April 23, 2022 at 1:06 AM

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