Google-apper
Hovedmeny

Post a Comment On: Ken Shirriff's blog

"Inside the 74181 ALU chip: die photos and reverse engineering"

11 Comments -

1 – 11 of 11
Blogger Unknown said...

Best article I've ever read on the 181

January 6, 2017 at 3:28 PM

Anonymous Alexis L. said...

Hats off for the whole study, and for making such an understandable article !

January 8, 2017 at 2:47 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Regarding the missing right-shift: Given that one can simulate a left-shift with `A+A`, it's possible to simply reverse the order of bits in `A` to get `A'`, calculate `A'+A'` and reverse the bit order of the result, no?

January 8, 2017 at 3:22 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Amazing article, thanks a lot for this. I specifically enjoy the "real engineering" aspect of the article. It clearly outlines the fairly wide gap that exists between various book implementation of TTL logic gates and the actual implementation in an industrial/commercial device (in other words, the part that never gets taught in unis and you have to wait to start in industry to actually learn).

January 8, 2017 at 7:01 AM

Blogger Ken Shirriff said...

Anonymous: yes, you do a right shift by reversing the bits and doing a left shift, but that would require several more chips, which is inconvenient. At that point, it's easier to implement a shift operation by bypassing the 74181 and shifting the bits directly. In this picture of the ALU board from a Xerox Alto, you can see the 8 chips they used to implement shift and rotate operations.

January 8, 2017 at 9:13 AM

Blogger Unknown said...

Ken,
Do you have an Acrobat version of this write-up? I'd like to use it in my logic design class as an example that touches on many topics. Please let me know. Incidentally, I'm on the Silicon 'arm' committee with the Computer History Museum and your name has come up more than once!

Jesse Jenkins (jessejenkins440@gmail.com)

January 8, 2017 at 3:23 PM

Blogger Kaleberg said...

Thanks for giving us a look inside one of those wonders. I used them in sophomore build-a-computer lab and they saved an awful lot of wiring back in the early 70s. If I remember, there was a follow up chip, the 74281 which was a 74181 with a barrel shift inside. I'll bet if you popped one open, you'd see the old 74181 layout inside. Conway and Mead didn't come out until the late 70s.

P.S. This is probably the last generation that can do stuff like this, or maybe not. In fifty years will someone be popping open an A12 ARM processor and pointing out the parallel look ahead buffer and the clever way the design software laid out the transistors?

January 9, 2017 at 8:02 PM

Blogger Unknown said...

I'm curious how you etched through the passivation layer to get to the metal. TTL chips of this period would typically have had a quartz layer over everything except the bond pads.

January 12, 2017 at 6:00 PM

Anonymous Gianluca G. said...

Well done Ken! Excellent

Your article is the thing I would have liked to do if I had the equipment. I also uncapped a 74181 and took a picture but with a very low resolution in my site...
How many active components you can count on? I have estimated 180-200.

Also: there is much unsolved debate whether the 74181 feature was first invented by Texas Instrument or it was born from a Fairchild custom design. Do you have any information about it?

I saw that you linked my site (APOLLO181). Thank you. Can I import the die picture in my site with proper copyright and references to you and your site?

Eventually I'd like to stay in touch with you by email.

Here it is explained by me how to make a left shift with 74181.
http://ygg-it.tripod.com/id20.html
http://apollo181.wixsite.com/apollo181

Thank you
Greetings
Gianluca G. Italy

January 15, 2017 at 9:01 PM

Blogger Ken Shirriff said...

David Thomas: I was quite surprised that there was no passivation layer. I put HCl acid on the die to remove the bond wires, and it removed all the metal! Maybe passivation isn't as important for TTL? (Does anyone out there know?) For MOS chips, I've removed the passivation with Armour Etch Glass Etching Cream, which I got at a craft store.

January 16, 2017 at 9:19 AM

Anonymous Martijn said...

Ken, thank you for this Amazing blog!!

February 28, 2017 at 11:32 AM

You can use some HTML tags, such as <b>, <i>, <a>

Comment moderation has been enabled. All comments must be approved by the blog author.

You will be asked to sign in after submitting your comment.
Please prove you're not a robot