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"5 Kinds of Random Generators & What Makes Them Not Suck"

17 Comments -

1 – 17 of 17
Blogger Adam Dickstein said...

As you know I'm sorta, well, not anti-random generator per se but I don't like'em, use'em or need'em much. You've actually listed pretty much the all the reasons I don't love them so I won't go into that but I will tell you which ones I have liked.

"Incomplete/Inspirational Generators", akin to the Super Powers charts from the old Villains & Vigilantes game were fun. I really liked the challenge of rolling Animal/Plant Powers twice, coming up with Fish and Bird abilities and trying make a seriously cool superhero out of that (Done. The Seahawk. Native American Hero best described as a Crossbetween Aquaman, Hawkman and Shaman from Marvel's Alpha Flight).

More times then not however, I would drop a power (to avoid a weakness in V&V) and tweak a thing or be left with a ridiculous hero. Other players just made silly supers and it always felt weird.

So the Incomplete/Inspirational Generators and Breeders are ok in my book, just not as cool as making it up myself.

April 17, 2011 at 3:24 PM

Blogger Roger G-S said...

That's a very solid analysis.

On in-play tables: Player drama can also include celebration, not just anxiety, for instance when THEY roll a crit.

On inspirational tables: I use them to break my imagination out of cliche. But a really cool thematic idea trumps the random table. Fact is, I just threw out a randomly stocked level and replaced it with a wicked theme.

Simulation tables provide plausible deniability. The troll-slaying sword, where you don't want the guy with it to NEVER run into a troll but if you intentionally make a troll it looks forced. Works the other way for trolls with elf-slaying swords.

There's also nothing wrong with jogging your imagination reading a list that just happens to have numbers next to it. I guess that's your complete table, there.

April 17, 2011 at 3:35 PM

Blogger Telecanter said...

My holy grail for a long time has been a single treasure item generator to use in solo play. I want to be surprised by my own table. The difficulties are related to your categories.

It can't be a Simple, Complete Option Generator, because there needs to be a ton of options.

It can't be a Complete Creative Result Generator, because, again, no matter how cool the stuff I make up, it won't surprise me.

So, it has to be a combination of a the Incomplete and the Breeder. The difficulty is, as you say, abstracting out the commonalities without allowing for too many weird anomalies. I haven't given up yet.

And yeah, I saw those comments on LotFP and thought something similar, I spent hours of my youth trying to come up with solo adventure breeders. Its hard. My best attempt was to cook treasure/monster generation into hexagonal geomorphs. That would work for a very vanilla dungeoncrawl.

April 17, 2011 at 3:45 PM

Blogger Zak Sabbath said...

@roger

the "anxiety" refers to pre-rolling emotion.

And, naturally, the emotion of anxiety implies both hope and fear.

April 17, 2011 at 4:03 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Very thorough analysis. Nommy food for thought the next time generators get written. Possibly you should consider making a PDF of your RPG theory posts like this one... :)

April 17, 2011 at 4:37 PM

Blogger Talysman said...

I call the Mad Libs approach of your sample Breeder Generator "formulas". It's a big deal in the 20-Sided Quickie tables I was working on; I have a bunch of formulas like "MODIFIER + LAND FEATURE" for naming geographical features or "MATERIAL + PERSON + OBJECT" to describe statues of people. The all caps phrases are names of columns in the table.

For Incomplete/Inspirational Generators, I'm relying much more on the Random Random Table (based on Lewis Carroll's Memoria Technica) with the dice rolled on a sheet of paper divided radially into areas labeled with the six Ability scores arranged around a hub.

April 17, 2011 at 6:05 PM

Blogger Matthew Schmeer said...

So, I take it you don't like my bear table:

http://rendedpress.blogspot.com/2011/04/d50-table-bear-with-me.html

But I dig your advice here. Lots of things to think over in terms of making material more useful and creative.

April 17, 2011 at 9:05 PM

Blogger Adam Thornton said...

What's Wrong With This Guy On Fox News? (d100)
1-98 Gay and doesn't want to admit it to himself
99-00 Something else

BEST. TABLE. EVAR.

I also thought I'd (slyly) pimp my Wandering Harlot Table, as seen in Fight On!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/20213284/Wandering-Harlot-Table

Which can easily turn into a whole subplot of its own. Which would make it a breeder, but I don't think I can cope with any more single entendres tonight.

April 17, 2011 at 9:17 PM

Blogger Zak Sabbath said...

@Adam

This is like the 9th time you've commented on this blog to tell people about that table. I can tell you're really proud of it.

April 17, 2011 at 10:08 PM

Blogger anarchist said...

Zak, do you think there's a difference between tables that are designed to be used in adventure creation, and tables that are designed to be used during play?

Personally I like making tables as a spur to creativity. If you have to think of twenty villainous motivations, you're probably going to run out of obvious ones and be forced to come up with non-obvious ones. It's kind of like a brainstorming technique.

When DMing I mostly use the reaction table, wandering monster tables, and one I made myself for the class and race of NPC parties - outside of tables I write for particular encounters ('if the PCs throw a torch at this, it will explode on 1-2...').

This started as a post about how I don't use random tables much, but in writing it I realised that I actually use them all the time.

Also I often make up 'tables' for specific cases and roll when I'm not sure what should happen.

April 17, 2011 at 11:13 PM

Blogger John Evans said...

Hmmm. This post gave me an idea, and I worked up a small table to explore that idea...

Mid-Level Henchman of Evil Wizard Table

Race, d4:
1 - Human
2 - Dark Dwarf
3 - Human/random animal hybrid (anthro, centaur, whatever you like)
4 - Cthulhuoid starspawned abomination

Weapon, d4:
1 - Axe
2 - Crossbow that magically reloads itself (or a pair of them?)
3 - Frost mace; extra cold damage, slows opponents
4 - Electrically charged sword that screams to disorient opponents AND throwing and returning warhammer

THEN add together those previous rolls and subtract from 9!

Extra feature, 9 - (Race + Weapon):
1: No extra feature!
2: Surrounded by glowing holy radiance (it's just light, not an actual holy aura...or maybe it is!)
3: Casts magic-user spells (so what if it uses an axe? it's a natural magic ability)
4: Spits venom (play it like throwing a dagger, but it's a free action it can do every round)
5: Pet frog on shoulder that throws poisoned darts
6: Can fly as if affected by permanent Fly spell
7: When killed, a demon bursts from his skin with full HP; if the demon can survive or escape with his skin or equipment, he can re-humanize himself

April 17, 2011 at 11:33 PM

Blogger Zak Sabbath said...

@anarchist:

Is there a difference between during adventure creation and play? Mostly, yeah--you have different sets of design goals however, they are nto mutually exclusive. Some tables meet both, but most don't.

During play, DM-only tables the players -don't- know about should be fast and ones players use or know about the DM using should be slow but high-stakes. Like you don't want to say to your players "now we're going to roll for the kind of furniture in the room"--that doesn't increase tension.

During creation, tables need to follow the specs in this post more or less.

As for creating tables as a brainstorming technique, hey it's true, we all do that.

April 17, 2011 at 11:43 PM

Blogger -C said...

Primarily I use tables out of play for prep. The tables I use in game are tables where player stakes and interest are high (critical tables, treasure) or setup tables for encounters (taking 30 or so seconds to set up a scene).

April 18, 2011 at 7:53 AM

Blogger C'nor (Outermost_Toe) said...

One thing I've noticed is that I'm coming up with a lot of quick things as needed, and using table for other purposes than they were originally meant for.For example, I'll go "Okay, I need to know if there's any wind, what the temperature is, and if there are any weird smells", so d2 (no wind) d3 (neutral), d2 (yes). Then "What can I use to get some weird smells? The potion appearance table has smells and tastes. Those'll work." d8 (turpentine), d7 (sour). From that I get "The air is still, and neither warm nor cold. There is a strange odor, as though of soured milk and turpentine.".

April 18, 2011 at 9:46 AM

Blogger Justin Alexander said...

A couple people have mentioned inspirational/incomplete tables as a way of forcing you out of your creative habits; and that's definitely true.

I'll also add that they're inordinately useful for keeping the creative juices flowing after you've exhausted your own supply. Recently, for example, I had about a week to stock 256 hexes. After the first hundred hexes or so I was running pretty dry. In an ideal world I would have taken a break and let me brain turn over a couple of times with fresh idea; but I didn't have the time, and so random tables kept me fresh in ideas.

April 18, 2011 at 12:40 PM

Blogger Edvando said...

@Zak, i have a question for you.

One the problens that i have is managing tons of paper, props, handouts, etc.

In my new campaing im trying not to use those junk, but i like the idea of using random tables.

How do you use then?

Edvando, from Brazil.

April 19, 2011 at 4:14 AM

Blogger Zak Sabbath said...

@edvando

I try to get all the tables I am going to need in one place.

Like last week I cut and pasted a lot of tables all onto 2 pieces of paper then printed them out.

Another way is to have each table printed out on a piece of paper with 3 holes punched, then put them all in a 3-ring binder inside plastic sheets.

Another way is to buy a blank sketchbook and put all the tables in there.

April 19, 2011 at 12:24 PM

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